I am not sure if it's something about the turkey itself or the ways generally employed to cook them, but dry turkey seems to be a common theme of discussion among people during thanksgiving. Although, it might also be my own biases that makes me think it's a common enough issue. So I figur...
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Some of my own personal observations:
- a turkey is a HUGE bird
- people only cook turkey once a year
- most guidelines for cooking turkey overcook the turkey
- most people are terrified of undercooking poultry
Trying something once a year isn't usually great for learning. It's a long feedback cycle and cooking for a special occasion disincentivises risk taking/experimentation. Same goes for risk of inflicting food poisoning for a large group. Cooking something so large is sufficiently different from roasting a chicken (for example) that people lack confidence/get it wrong.
This leads to the quaint cultural tradition of millions of people overcooking their turkey on thanksgiving in the US and on Christmas in the UK.
That said I always thought the US generally ate turkey more so their turkey game was better.
Fwiw my turkey has never been dry but I come from a family of cooks.
By croutonwagon 2021-11-2614:595 reply Would agree. I smoke about 5-6 turkeys a year. I’ve got it down pretty well.
However I rarely do it for thanksgiving if extended family are coming (at least the wrong ones).
I’ve had them freak out a out the juice, about the little “done timer” not going off, about internal color etc.
In one case I had an aunt demand it go into an oven and sure enough overcooked it (which is why I now often don’t make one for extended family).
People do similar with pork and ribs and such. I’ve never had an issue and still cook my meat to certain temps etc. but it’s one of those things everyone’s an expert on.
I will say that those that have eaten my smoked turkey, ribs, Boston butt etc tend to like it, if not prefer it, but that’s never been enough to deter some naysayers.
That said, it’s also why I like dark meat. Can’t stand dry meat that’s not jerky.
By rnvannatta 2021-11-2616:002 reply Those popup done-indicators are pretty unreliable; I'm not sure why turkeys ship with them, I imagine they've ruined a great many birds.
I cooked the turkey last year. My thermometer said it was good, but that popup hadn't popped.
I knew those popup indicators were unreliable, but the fear of feeding people raw poultry compelled me to put it in the oven for another long while. It came out dry and stringy and the damn timer still didn't pop.
By Retric 2021-11-2616:29 It’s a quality sacrifice, but the prevent quite a lot of food poisoning. As far as the industry is concerned overcooked turkey isn’t going to end a holiday tradition, however a trip to the hospital could.
By croutonwagon 2021-11-2617:071 reply I’ve almost never had them go off. And the one time it did it was because the coals were running way too hot.
I never use them for anything.
What’s funny is I have a little Bluetooth thermometer. I can literally graph and monitor the meat temp without pulling the blanket or lid off the smoker.
By mrgreenfur 2021-11-2622:371 reply Blanket on a smoker? Can you tell me about that? Never thought to use one but have heard of people making insulating jackets
By croutonwagon 2021-11-273:14 I don’t have a super fancy smoker. Just one of those barrel Smokers.
I take an old comforter and wrap the smoker in it once the meat is on. Just serves to somewhat insulate but mostly hold a lot of the smoke. With nothing on it, things on the lower rack would hardly get a good “Smokey” flavor. The blanket makes a surprisingly good addition.
Happily, my in-laws don’t complain when the turkey is juicy. I also smoke mine, spatchcocked on the grill each year and it’s always come out great. Hard to screw up with a good thermometer and two-zone setup. (The Amazing Ribs technique has been pretty fool-proof if tough to navigate on the website)
I’ve found carving it out of sight also means folks don’t see the juice / pinker sections until they hit the table. Maybe an option to avoid the whining and overkill cooking? :) Good luck.
By croutonwagon 2021-11-2617:09 Yeah. I wish my kitchen setup was conducive to me being able to carve and rest it out of sight. But my house setup is basically all around the kitchen. Oh well, their loss.
By MattGaiser 2021-11-2615:261 reply I have some relatives who will add an extra 10 degrees, "just to be safe."
By DavidPeiffer 2021-11-2616:391 reply That's really frustrating. A lot of people don't realize food can be safely cooked to a lower temperature than the generic guideline as long as it's held at that temp for a period of time.
165 is the generic guideline given for cooking chicken, however 160 for 15 seconds is just as effective at getting the desired kill on salmonella, or 155 for 48 seconds.
https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-complete-guide-to-s...
By croutonwagon 2021-11-2617:04 Yeah. And smokers slowly bring the temperature up. So it’s seems more uniform. I run my turkeys to about 150-155 on the breast meat. That’s after about 1 hr/lb on the smoker.
Almost any other part of the turkey is gonna be 160+, especially near any bones.
Sometimes the juice isn’t always clear. But I’ve never had an issue.
The best thing I did for not having dry turkeys or other meat, is a meat thermometer. I, like your aunt, just didn't pay attention to anything before.
By croutonwagon 2021-11-2617:19 Yeah I use a Weber iGrill to monitor. Though I have a spreadsheet going back to the 90s of things I’ve smoked. Size, temps, re-coals etc. I don’t really need a monitor for smoking but I still use it out of habit and allows me to check the temp without pull long the blanket or top off the cooker.
But a thermometer has been great for steaks and others. But even they kinda lead you to overcook. Like the Weber iGrill will want you to run the temp up to 165 on poultry. But on a smoker it’s an extended period of time over heat, not a grill with a quick jump to a temp.
The meat at 150 for 1-2 hours+ it’s fine. I usually do about 1 hr per pound on the smoker and the breast at/above 150 for an hour or more.
By kcplate 2021-11-274:55 > I had an aunt demand it go into an oven and sure enough overcooked it
Basically I point those folks to the microwave.
By snarf21 2021-11-2614:58 The key is to do a dry brine with just salt at least over night. Rinse and dry afterwards. Keep foil over the breasts except for a short period of time to brown the skin. People also tend to cook it until it is dead. Use a thermometer but remember that the temperature will carry. Then let the turkey sit for at least an hour under foil and a towel. Perfect every time.
By smegger001 2021-11-2616:21 >That said I always thought the US generally ate turkey more so their turkey game was better.
the turkey we eat a lot of generally isn't a whole bird, its mostly lunch meat
that said my bird was moist.
> quaint cultural tradition of [turkey for] Christmas in the UK
Imported from America in C19, for what it's worth. I realise that's arguably long enough ago to be both tradition and quaint, but my point really is it's not the only way/a must/centuries old (well ok, one or two). Poultry more so/further back, really it's just a feast day though, have whatever.
By yomly 2021-11-2618:49 Heh on the continent they eat goose sometimes so I guess that might be the longer standing tradition? With no actual knowledge of these matters, game feels in season for late autumn / early winter...?
I think the US missed a huge opportunity to pick the turkey as the national bird (I'm not saying anything about Franklin) and to consume turkey more than chicken. Turkey is royalty among poultry.
By konfusinomicon 2021-11-2614:591 reply if turkey was the national bird, we'd all be overcooking our bald eagles instead
By bryanrasmussen 2021-11-2615:46 or to pardon on the white house lawn.
By doopy1 2021-11-2615:45 Had a turkey at a friend's place the other day, it was moist and delicious. They did a 20 hour brine.
There is no reason for dry turkey. It is all about cooking temperature, especially with the white meat.
You really want to make sure the white meat never gets above 145 F ish. The easiest way to do this is with sous vide but you can it other ways if you follow the process correctly. With sous vide it is basically impossible to mess up.
My Process:
I've been following this process for years and it just works.1) Carve raw turkey in to major pieces like you would a chicken. 2) Place white breast meat in one plastic bag. Dark in a second bag 3) Add some salt/pepper or other spices to bag, along with some butter or fat/oil. 4) Remove air from bags as best you can 5) Sous vide at 145 F for 3 hours 6) Remove white meat bag from water, Raise temp to 165 for 2 more hours 7) At this point meat it done and can be refrigerated for a day or two. 8) Remove meat from bag, put in large dish under broiler until skin is crisp.Probably produces great meat, but does directly contradict USDA guidelines. https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and...
At least in chicken, multi-drug resistant salmonella is still a problem that kills people in the US. The government’s approach to food safety assumes you will follow the guidelines and cook to 165 while religiously following anti-cross-contamination measures, rather than actually pursuing food safety. Maybe turkey is the exception, but I have my doubts.
https://www.govexec.com/oversight/2021/10/americas-food-safe...
By Spinnaker_ 2021-11-2615:234 reply Food safety is about temperature and time. Not just temperature. When you see a temperature like 165 it means that the moment the meat hits that temperature it is safe. You can lower the max temperature as long as you increase the time the meat is held there. Chicken at 136 degrees for 70 minutes is just as safe as momentarily reaching 165 degrees.
A nice overview: https://blog.thermoworks.com/chicken/thermal-tips-simple-roa...
That's not entirely generalisable though, e.g. not in the limit 'room temperature forever'; there is also a temperature you just plain have to get to (depending what you're trying to kill) no matter how long you hold it.
Yes but this is perhaps overly pedantic.
No one would legitimately try to cook a chicken by keeping it at room temperature forever, you still want cooked meat — it’s just that 165 overcooks it. For breast meat, you typically want 150, and you can hold it there for enough to kill salmonella.
By OJFord 2021-11-2616:50 Yes I'm only taking it to the limit of zero heating and infinite time to make the point obvious, but what's room temperature (I don't know Fahrenheit) 90F or something - call it that, point is that just the act of heating it at all, doesn't magically kill (e.g.) salmonella. Wikipedia lists 131F for 90min as being sufficient - that doesn't necessarily mean it's possible at all at 120F, however long you leave it.
By prpl 2021-11-2617:05 the lower bound is around 130-136 - the temps where bacteria start to die. The absolute lower end is roughly where they don’t multiply.
By n8cpdx 2021-11-2617:42 I wish I could edit my comment to acknowledge this. TIL. Without that specific knowledge, it sounded like a recipe for disaster - slosh around a bunch of random meat in juices, incubate at moderate heat for hours, stir it up with grubby fingers, and then only cook some of it to safe temperature.
In my own life, my struggle is with loved ones who recklessly disregard basic safety advice, so I’m overly on guard for it. E.g. not wearing seatbelts level of recklessness (I really wish I was making that up), in addition to not bothering with the meat thermometer at all.
By mcot2 2021-11-2616:05 Correct, was just going to post this. This is why sous vide is so fantastic.
By datavirtue 2021-11-2615:36 Yep, all about the heat work.
By denimnerd42 2021-11-2615:32 you should probably do more research than that when talking about sous vide.
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/import/Salmone...
look at page 35
because you can hold things in sous vide indefinitely you can do 145 for as long as makes you comfortable.
By moron4hire 2021-11-2617:51 You're probably more likely to get salmonella from dirty produce than undercooked poultry.
By jm547ster 2021-11-2614:34 If you want this same process to work with all the meat being ready at once, flip the temps around: Cook dark meat at 165 for 3 hours -> drop temp to 145 F (ice to hurry it) Drop in your white meat for 2 hours - remove all and crisp
By BenoitEssiambre 2021-11-2616:002 reply Note that 145 will make dark meat taste kinda raw so don't try this temperature on a whole bird.
155 to 160 can be kindof a trade-off if you want to do the whole bird. Government guidelines are 165 minimum but when going over 160, white meat starts to get noticeably dry. Still, if you really want to follow government guidelines, sous vide to 165 and not one degree more is not that bad compared to oven until center is 165 which puts outer meat at like 180 or more and clearly overcooked.
By bpicolo 2021-11-2616:05 The 165 guideline is for instantaneous heat. With sous-vide, you pasteurize to the same degree with lower heat for a longer time.
By __mharrison__ 2021-11-2616:311 reply I did 145 for white (5 hours) and dark (overnight). I didn't think it was undercooked at all. I just wish the birds had more dark meat and less white.
By gcheong 2021-11-2623:48 Generally speaking a heritage or wild turkey will tend to have more dark meat in proportion to breast meat than your typical store-bought bird.
By saryant 2021-11-2615:33 I’ve done a version of this the last few years.
1) Break bird into parts. Thighs, breasts, tenderloins and “everything else” each into their own bag.
2) Butterfly the breasts and lay them over the skin. Rub with salt, butter and whatever herbs you like. Roll breasts and skin up into a roulade. Refrigerate for 2 days.
3) Sous vide breast roulade at 140 for 4-5 hours then deep fry.
4) Separately, braise the legs/thighs in red wine and mirepoix.
5) Use the bones/gizzards to make gravy.
6) Toss the tenderloins in the freezer for another day.
Ideas courtesy of Serious Eats. Works very well but does require a lot of upfront work. The results are worth it though.
By gwbas1c 2021-11-2616:48 FYI: My meat thermometer got right up to 170 when I took the turkey out. It was perfect.
By canadian_tired 2021-11-2614:29 YES! Agreed!
By obiwan14 2021-11-2615:08 If you have to do all that to not get turkey meat that's dry, then one has to assume that turkey meat, cooked like you would cook any other meat, like chicken, is dry, as has been my experience.
To sum, turkey meat is dry. Don't want dry turkey meat, follow these steps...
By igetspam 2021-11-2614:12 After one of my two turkeys was taken by a predator, we rehomed her sister because she was lonely and becoming aggressive with th hens. Because of that, we didn't have our traditional "turkey day" but they sent photos and she's doing quite well. She didn't get the same spread as last year but at least she has a companion. As there was a little rain over the last couple days, I'm sure she's at least a little damp.
